Aug
26
In Defense Of The Big Boys
Once upon a time, Sonia and I decided to get together and make a product. Not knowing what it would be yet, we figured we were at least sort of business partners and could therefore justify splitting a purchase of Mass Control by Frank Kern.
(Newbies to internet marketing: Frank Kern is an internet marketing Big Boy. He sells really expensive information products. Mass Control was $2400.)
When people found out I bought this, I got a lot of reactions, but the most common was incredulity. Sometimes it was positive incredulity (“holy cow! I can’t believe you did that! Tell me what it was like!”) and some of it was negative incredulity (“I can’t believe you were that stupid.”) Pretty much nobody in the little incestuous and Must Think Small Or Die blogging circle in which we mingle could believe that anybody they knew would buy something like that.
Every time there’s a big launch, there are crazy ripples across the blogosphere. Half the world tries to sell you whatever latest and greatest product comes out — let’s face it, one affiliate sale can pay your mortgage for the month — and the rest goes ballistic about how much of a ripoff it is.
Now there’s another launch, the relaunch of the very popular and much fussed over Teaching Sells by my lover colleague Brian Clark of Copyblogger and Tony Clark. And sure enough, people are starting to freak out.
Basically, Teaching Sells is a very intensive course on how to create a training business. Like mine. Or Brian’s. Or Havi’s. It’s built for people who want to sell ebooks or home study courses or membership sites or whatever. I took it when it first came out, so I have a special spot for it in my heart. And I get really fucking pissed off when people start talking shit about it.
Nobody is owed a free education.
These Big Ass Information Products (hereafter referred to as BAIP) are created for when you want to know you’re getting the best advice and information there is, all in one place, and you’re willing to pay for it.
The BAIP is created for when you need your teachers to be accountable for what they teach, and you’re willing to pay for it.
The BAIP is created for when you are building a career and you need to know what you’re buying is the best of the best, and you’re willing to pay for it.
If that’s not you, that’s fine. Nobody’s making you buy it. But man, I am getting so sick and tired of people bitching and moaning and whining about legitimate and respectable businesses selling their products at a fair market rate.
Nobody is owed a free business.
Somewhere along the lines, we seemed to get it in our collective heads that running an online business was different from running a bricks and mortar business. It’s supposed to be free and it’s supposed to not require us to learn anything new. We just slap up a blog and get rich, right?
Sonia and I talk on the phone pretty much every day. Sometimes it revolves around Marketing For Nice People related work. Sometimes it revolves around calling Brian and Frank a couple of total fucking idiots for selling their BAIPs online instead of offline. Because online, we think we deserve a business by leaving a few blog comments and retweeting motivational quotes a dozen times a day.
An offline business looks at a BAIP and sets their alarm early so they can make good and damn sure they get in when the course launches because the price is a total fucking steal.
The BAIP cannot survive in the marketplace without a guarantee that will blow your fucking mind. You could basically buy it and decide a while later that you didn’t want it and, whammo! You get your money back.
Does your university give you that?
Your hairdresser’s training course?
Your industry standard weekend seminar?
Can you decide 27 days after the fact that no, actually, it wasn’t for you?
Even the sleaziest marketing techniques are backed up by guarantees the likes of which the retail world has never seen.
(Case in point: With Mass Control, Kern said that if you didn’t like it, he would personally talk you through whatever you were having trouble with. And if you still didn’t like it, he’d give you your money back. Plus $500 for wasting your time. Can you get that at Target?)
With any of these big products, you are buying a career. You are buying skills that will never be made redundant. In many cases, you are buying access to the smartest people in the industry. And you can put them on a fucking payment plan.
Yes, I took Teaching Sells. Yes, I loved it. Yes, Brian and I are eloping in the fall. But this is not about Teaching Sells or Mass Control or whatever other doodad is on sale at the moment.
It’s about my big ass bitch that THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR in an ittybiz not succeeding is not treating it like a fucking business.
You don’t get to be a lawyer without law school. You don’t get to be a nail technician without esthetics school. And you don’t get rich on the internet without internet business school. Take this one. Take another one. Don’t take any. Whatever. Just don’t sit around whining about how expensive everything is.
(In all seriousness and no bitchiness, though, you really should check out the free bribes and goodies for this. In the introductory video — only five minutes — Brian says that the free material may be enough to totally change the way you do business and he’s right. It’s free and in bite-sized chunks. Handy.)
Amen and Amen, sister. I love that there are resources available online like this. Hey, somebody takes online businesses seriously. That’s good for ALL of us.
I’m not selling anything, but if I do I will be thankful to posts like this that take a stand! Thanks, Naomi.
Cross my heart, the free stuff is worth getting. There’s stuff there you can absolutely use to make money right away, whether or not you’re in the right place to go with Teaching Sells right now (or ever).
(The previous message brought to you by The World’s Most Gigantic Marketing Whore. All rights reserved. Do try this at home. Objects in mirror may be closer than they appear.)
If the big boys are truly that big, they hardly need defending.
“If that’s not you, that’s fine. Nobody’s making you buy it. But man, I am getting so sick and tired of people bitching and moaning and whining about legitimate and respectable businesses selling their products at a fair market rate.”
I know next to nothing about Teaching Sells and whether or not is a good product, legit business, or a fair price (I’m on the email list and I still can’t find a price anywhere, in fact, which makes me think it probably isn’t).
While nobody is *making* anyone buy these products, people like Frank Kern in particular are using highly sophisticated persuasion techniques to get people to buy–and in fact teaching these techniques to others as CONTROLLING others. If you put a gun to someone’s head, you can’t *make* them give you their wallet, but you can be mighty persuasive! It is important that we question which techniques of persuasion in marketing are ethical and which are not–obviously this is a contentious issue.
It is inconsistent to claim that say Mass Control for example is just a product available to rational consumers and then to have the content of Mass Control be all about pushing the emotional hot buttons of consumers. Are consumers making rational purchase decisions or are they making highly-emotionally charged ones based on one’s incredibly persuasive marketing?
Let’s be honest here.
Oh how I love it when you go on a rant girl!
It is so frustrating that when you do try to treat your website as a business, which I’m transitioning towards, there are people out there (I’ll call them haters – you’d probably call them *!@#!#! *@!#@#) who don’t get it and still believe everything in life is free, or at least should be.
Thanks for the encouragement to stay the course.
Oh, regarding massive money-back guarantees like Kern’s.
In the marketing courses, as you know, it is taught that we should give money-back guarantees to encourage customers to buy with lower perceived risk. In fact, it has been shown that the longer the deadline for such a guarantee, the less-likely a customer will use it (whether or not they are dissatisfied with the course). Adding personal help and $500 actually *discourages* people from taking that help and money, because it creates massive cognitive dissonance. “I must not have worked the course hard enough” thinks the customer, not considering whether or not the course had overpromised, and having paid so much not wanting to admit “I may have been ripped off by someone who seemed so trustworthy.” This is similar to the cognitive dissonance in bootcamp military initiation, where no one reports abuses because “it was part of our initiation” and it’s too painful to admit one might have been abused by their fellow comrades-in-arms.
Kern knows all of this, for sure–he’s a slick manipulator. He purposely gives massive money-back guarantees to avoid criticism and create cognitive dissonance. When someone actually takes him up on it, it just proves what “a nice guy he is.”
You are so correct! I absolutely love your post! I am still a small time internet business entrepreneur but one day I have high hopes for doing much larger scale e-courses. Yes, it is expensive to learn from the best but you get what you pay for?? Why do people think they can criticize others just because they are successful? Why not gather behind them and cheer on their good fortune AND hardwork.
Thanks for the awesome & honest post and the handy tip. I will definitely be looking into Copyblogger’s new course!
I’m a little disappointed in this rant. No mistake, I love a rant, and adore and respect you all up and down the block. You rant with a sharp bite and sweet exquisiteness that only the highest ranking practitioners can reach.
But to what end here? Anyone doing the slightest research or reference checking will have little question to the value and wisdom people like you, Sonia, and Brian offer. Those who throw rocks are the ones who play perpetual shadow puppets with their business aspirations, and are likely beyond your (or Brian’s) reach. However, I’m happy these latter folk exist as they are help swell the ranks of those who will be buying the goods and services from the people who take their biz seriously and invest accordingly.
So I just doubt you will convince any of the people you rant about. The rest will recognize greatness when they see it.
Having run brick and motor business for 12+ years I can remember there were a lot of the same tactics and problems that I see here on the web.
Recently I have been wandering my way through the mind games that seem to be attached to what might have been great products or services. It is hard to see the value when you feel you have just been manipulated somehow.
I admire the attention and speaking out that is currently going on around marketing. Time for all who have felt the incongruity of sales pitches to speak up -even if you will be labeled as bitching and moaning and whining (put-downs are not constructive criticism, but a form of power over) The market will change when we buy only what feels to have integrity and value to us and we can only know that when we get out of the pitch with its persuasive techniques and really see what is what…it is in our hearts and hands.
Thank you for the forum to speak!
“Profit is Not a Dirty Word” Thank you for saying what all of us are thinking. That is all.
Not ALL of us.
Awesome. I think I
totally have the hots for youthoroughly enjoy your casual style and perspective, Ms. Dunford.Seth Godin’s Two Tribes post treated it brilliantly: appreciating both the under-funded techies, AND the rich internet marketers. I’m definitely under-funded while I figure all this out, but I also have grown out of the attitude that I don’t deserve to be (WELL) paid for my offerings, and so I appreciate the techniques that the big boys are offering on how to get paid for our ideas and expertise.
It’s hilarious that guy’s like Frank Kern STILL can’t win with some of your commenters here. So, I sell you a car, and tell you you can bring it back in a year if you don’t like it, and I’m somehow the bad guy because I’ve manipulated you? That’s a pretty far stretch. I suspect it comes from a well-intentioned but misguided idea that we need to take responsibility for everyone else’s actions, and hold our #1 priority to be avoiding, like the plague, doing anything that could possibly in some way be construed as ‘manipulation’. By anyone. Ever. It’s a fear I see a lot. I personally would rather not assume people are mindless sheep, so easily dismantled by my vast and sophisticated manipulation skills as part of my big conspiracy.
We make up our own minds, and it’s pretty damn smart for these programs to offer the guarantees and commitments that they do. It allows newbies like me to explore, and find the right support for exactly the point I’m at with the idea or business, without risking six months rent just to find out. But whenever I do find a good program or service, I WANT to pay for it. People love spending money as long as we feel like we’ve made a good purchase.
I find myself constantly imploring people to value what they offer. Go ahead and put a high price tag on it, and then stand by it with a guarantee. That’s just good honest business, which leads to healthy partnerships, great referrals, and most importantly, authentic quality products created with passion, and heart. Which is exactly what the broader marketplace desperately needs.
@Jeff. Clearly you aren’t very good at manipulation. I have a $997 course I could sell you that would help. Just put your name and email in this box…
@Jeff, I like you. Even though you gave Seth credit for my post. (I’d post a smiley but that would be sort of cutsie-pie-barfy and then Naomi would have to smack me, and I hate when she does that.)
It’s this line from the Teaching Sells sales letter that I found the most disturbing:
“You’ll also see why being an “expert” at the training you sell is completely optional.”
This “anyone can do it” sales style is just disingenuous and I had expected more from Brian Clark, et al.
I wonder whether it is this that is causing more consternation in the blogosphere than the price issue
The red flags are not about pricing (thank you Hadi).
@Hadi, what Brian’s talking about is that you can become an expert at creating multimedia sites, rather than a content matter expert. For example, I’m working with a lovely lady now who has a stock market trading site, even though I know less than nothing about that subject. I’m not an expert in her topic, but I am an expert in how to create these type of sites, and I’m able to give her some very valuable guidance that would be quite hard for her to put together on her own.
@Sonia Oh SHIT. I got confused. Yes, YOUR brilliant, brilliant post, you wonderful creature. Made me feel (tear) not so (sob) alone..
MUST READ: http://www.copyblogger.com/two-tribes/
@Duff – Does your $997 course come with a guarantee?
@Jeff, see, I knew there was a reason I liked you.
Naomi,
“Because online, we think we deserve a business by leaving a few blog comments and retweeting motivational quotes a dozen times a day.”
Yup, that’s me, me, and oh yeah…me. Just because it looks easy, doesn’t mean it is. To be honest, if people start taking this approach, I’ll be very happy. I’m honestly sick of people thinking that everything on the internet is supposed to be free.
Thanks for the verbal slap in the head! I needed that! :)
The point Hadi made above was one discussed in a blog post “Teaching Sells: Does it Work?”. Interestingly, no one in the discussion, including the person writing the post, had actually been on Teaching Sells, and formed their opinions about the course by (mis-?)reading the report and posts on the website. A person who had actually taken the course and reviewed it positively was described a “moron”, and someone who, presumably, could only form such an opinion because he had vested interests as an affiliate, along with all the other sycophants. As the blogger was obviously pleased about the high rank of her post in google, it makes me wonder about her vested interests? My rant over.
It seems to me there’s a confusion of issues here. Money is one, the ethics of how people earn that money is another. I have no problem with people generating a significant income from their internet activities. You, Naomi, inspire me and I expect most of your readers are coming to you wanting to create the same kind of success.
I encourage everyone to use discernment and determine whether someone’s business tactics are the kinds they want to support and implement.
For myself, I’m sorry to say I seem to be receiving more and more manipulative pitches. There seems to be a growing domino effect as well. People whose work I’ve respected are promoting programs with words that look like an honest review but smell like affilate checks to me. It’s making it difficult for me to know who to trust anymore.
I’ve signed up and read/listened/watched the free stuff already. If this is a true indication of the quality of the course, then I’m there (subject to bank account approval).
I don’t know how much it is, although I vaguely remember hearing a figure akin to Mass Control… So what? If it makes me that much then I’m even with more skills than I started with.
If I don’t make it back then it’s either because I’m slack and lazy and didn’t apply any of the skills, or I can ask for my money back. Actually, I’d probably ask for my money back even if it was because I was slack and lazy. So I’ve either got my money back, or I’m too lazy to ask for it. It’s all good.
But on the other hand, what if it makes me money? What if I apply what it teaches and *gasp* make a profit? Suddenly it’s looking like a damn fine investment.
It’s very simple people. If you don’t want it then don’t buy it. Quit bitching about it. Or buy it, take a good look, and THEN you can put your opinion out there.
@Judy, thanks much.
@Melinda, I think that puts it very nicely.
It fascinates me that no matter how hard we work to produce a product with amazing value, to treat buyers with consummate respect, to deliver cubic shit tons of free stuff that has exceptional independent value, there will still be those who call us hucksters, villains, and thieves.
And you know what? If you’re going to make a living in your business, you’ll get it too. If you’re visible (and you can’t find customers if no one can see you, my dears), someone will take a swing at you.
Some will take the darkest view of what you do, no matter how hard you work to be one of the good guys. Believe in yourself, deliver the very best you can, and don’t let other people define you.
Now, everyone please join me in a rousing round of “Kumbaya.”
I will disagree with Sonia that that if one is visible someone will take a swing at you…really? Perhaps people will not want or need my services or I may not be the correct match for their current situation but they will take a swing at me for simply being in a visible business that is successful?
My experience of running 2 physical and one online health foods stores for 12 years and consulting for 10 all very visible and successful…and I have not experienced this swinging or disdain.
Unless you consider when a gut feeling or opinion is expressed it is called whining, is that swinging?
The growth and new ideas generated from intellectual debate is inspiring and productive. It’s a wonderful to see our own foibles and be pushed to our greater selves, it does not require swinging.
Singing Kumbaya …perhaps it would be a great idea, seriously!
From Wikipedia;
The song was originally associated with human and spiritual unity, closeness and compassion, and it still is, but more recently it is also cited or alluded to in satirical, sarcastic or even cynical ways that suggest blind or false moralizing, hypocrisy, or naively optimistic views of the world and human nature.
Life really is beautiful.
Aloha~ Gina
Well, I’ve had it, Naomi’s had it, Havi Brooks has had it, Darren Rowse has had it, Seth Godin has had it, Chris Brogan has had it, but that does not diminish my genuine happiness that you haven’t had it. (You seem like perhaps you think I’m referring to your comments here when I say “take a swing,” but I’m not.)
I know I shouldn’t have read the garbage post Melinda referred to, but I did. Packed with falsehood and it would just be insane for me to try and refute any of them. It very literally is making me sick to my stomach.
I would love to get the point where these things didn’t bother me. Perhaps some day I will. (Melinda, you are a champ for wading into that muck, and I appreciate it so much.)
99 people out of 100 who I deal with are SO AMAZING, and I need to remember that.
(P.S. I am a 100% unironic Kumbaya singer.)
It’s an interesting discussion.
Courses and workshops come in all industries. In the photography industry, if I want to learn how to light subjects I may pay over 1K to go learn for a couple days how to use strobes. If I don’t know how to light once I get home, I am certain no one is going to give me my money back.
However, getting money back is the last thing I would think about. The high price tag should stop most if they are not very serious about this. I have not made any money yet online, however I am working towards it. I want to mainly sell my photography as art, but I notice the value of information products and want to provide valuable information to other people looking for it as well. I intend to take a course like these in the future.
‘Tall Poppy Syndrome’ is what it’s called. You don’t get knocked down if you’re invisible and blend in with everyone else. It’s only when you stand up to be noticed that you get heckled.
And I have some very good memories of Kumbaya. Singing it around a campfire in Girls Brigade when I was a kid. Seriously. I love it, it brings back happy memories every time.
Naomi, thanks for the post (and the alternative marriage option).
Sonia already addressed this, but I thought I would too.
The “you don’t have to be an existing expert” thing is drawing all this fire (notably from people who’ve never taken the course), and I find it a bit odd. It might be because a lot of people trying to make money online don’t have a lot of real-world business experience.
In the real world of media and training, there are producers, technicians, talent, subject matter experts, investors, etc.
In the social media and online business world, there’s this assumption that you have to be all of those at once. That’s what’s holding so many people down. I can’t be all of those roles at once (nor would I want to).
And yet I have a very tiny business. I’ve just learned how to partner with the talent and expertise I need to do things.
Teaching Sells is a “real world” approach to online business. It’s not fairy tales about how an untalented loser can make millions with 30 minutes of work from poolside.
So it’s not for everyone. But it works for those willing to do the work.
And if you don’t think so, you can have your money back. :)
(uh oh… emoticon. I hope Naomi smacks me around in a good way).
@ Brian — It’s not fairy tales about how an untalented loser can make millions with 30 minutes of work from poolside? Jesus Christ, what IS it, then?
Poolside sipping a Mojito, re-watching the second season Burn Notice, I figured Teaching Sells was like, Sham-Wow; then, I read Brian’s comment, and pull away from the Buy Now button.
Crap. Back to the real world of media and training.